‘Economy will be wrecked’ in bogus drive to reduce CO2 emissions, he adds
BREAKING NEWS
The Australian scientist who developed his country’s Kyoto accounting protocol says there is no evidence that carbon emissions cause global warming and global warming itself appears to have stopped by 2001, with temperatures now back to 1980 levels.
In an article in The Australian newspaper today, Dr David Evans says that despite years of searching for it, scientists have found no evidence to support the theory that carbon emissions cause significant global warming.
While Dr Evans accepts global warming has occurred, he insists there is no evidence carbon emissions caused it, despite computer modelling that suggested warming would follow higher carbon dioxide emissions.
Further, he says all the evidence is there has been no global warming since 2001, and temperatures are now back to 1980 levels.
“What is going to happen over the next decade as global temperatures continue not to rise?” he writes. “The [Australian] Labor Government is about to deliberately wreck the economy in order to reduce carbon emissions… When it comes to light that the carbon scare was known to be bogus in 2008, the ALP is going to be regarded as criminally negligent or ideologically stupid for not having seen through it. And if the Liberals support the general thrust of their actions, they will be seen likewise.”
Dr Evans was a consultant to the Australian Greenhouse Office from 1999 to 2005.
“I am the rocket scientist who wrote the carbon accounting model (FullCAM) that measures Australia’s compliance with the Kyoto Protocol, in the land use change and forestry sector,” he says. “I devoted six years to carbon accounting, building models for the Australian Greenhouse Office.”
When he started that job in 1999, the evidence that carbon emissions caused global warming seemed pretty good, he wrote.
“CO2 is a greenhouse gas, the old ice core data, no other suspects. The evidence was not conclusive, but why wait until we were certain when it appeared we needed to act quickly? Soon government and the scientific community were working together and lots of science research jobs were created. We scientists had political support, the ear of government, big budgets, and we felt fairly important and useful (well, I did anyway). It was great. We were working to save the planet.”
But since 1999, new evidence has seriously weakened the case that carbon emissions are the main cause of global warming, and by 2007 the evidence was pretty conclusive that carbon played only a minor role and was not the main cause of the recent global warming.
“As Lord Keynes famously said, ‘When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir’?
“There has not been a public debate about the causes of global warming and most of the public and our decision makers are not aware of the most basic salient facts:
“One. The greenhouse signature is missing. We have been looking and measuring for years, and cannot find it. Each possible cause of global warming has a different pattern of where in the planet the warming occurs first and the most. The signature of an increased greenhouse effect is a hot spot about 10km up in the atmosphere over the tropics. We have been measuring the atmosphere for decades using radiosondes: weather balloons with thermometers that radio back the temperature as the balloon ascends through the atmosphere. They show no hot spot. Whatsoever.
“If there is no hot spot then an increased greenhouse effect is not the cause of global warming. So we know for sure that carbon emissions are not a significant cause of the global warming. If we had found the greenhouse signature then I would be an alarmist again.
“When the signature was found to be missing in 2007 (after the latest IPCC report), alarmists objected that maybe the readings of the radiosonde thermometers might not be accurate and maybe the hot spot was there but had gone undetected. Yet hundreds of radiosondes have given the same answer, so statistically it is not possible that they missed the hot spot.
“Recently the alarmists have suggested we ignore the radiosonde thermometers, but instead take the radiosonde wind measurements, apply a theory about wind shear, and run the results through their computers to estimate the temperatures. They then say that the results show that we cannot rule out the presence of a hot spot.
“If you believe that you’d believe anything.
“Two. There is no evidence to support the idea that carbon emissions cause significant global warming. None. There is plenty of evidence that global warming has occurred, and theory suggests that carbon emissions should raise temperatures (though by how much is hotly disputed) but there are no observations by anyone that implicate carbon emissions as a significant cause of the recent global warming.
“Three. The satellites that measure the world’s temperature all say that the warming trend ended in 2001, and that the temperature has dropped about 0.6C in the past year (to the temperature of 1980). Land-based temperature readings are corrupted by the ‘urban heat island’ effect: urban areas encroaching on thermometer stations warm the micro-climate around the thermometer, due to vegetation changes, concrete, cars, houses. Satellite data is the only temperature data we can trust, but it only goes back to 1979. NASA reports only land-based data, and reports a modest warming trend and recent cooling. The other three global temperature records use a mix of satellite and land measurements, or satellite only, and they all show no warming since 2001 and a recent cooling.
“Four. The new ice cores show that in the past six global warmings over the past half a million years, the temperature rises occurred on average 800 years before the accompanying rise in atmospheric carbon. Which says something important about which was cause and which was effect.”
None of these points are controversial, Dr Evans writes. Alarmist scientists agree with them, though they would dispute their relevance, he adds.
“The last point was known and past dispute by 2003, yet Al Gore made his movie in 2005 and presented the ice cores as the sole reason for believing that carbon emissions cause global warming. In any other political context our cynical and experienced press corps would surely have called this dishonest and widely questioned the politician’s assertion.
“Until now the global warming debate has merely been an academic matter of little interest. Now that it matters, we should debate the causes of global warming. So far that debate has just consisted of a simple sleight of hand: show evidence of global warming, and while the audience is stunned at the implications, simply assert that it is due to carbon emissions.
“In the minds of the audience, the evidence that global warming has occurred becomes conflated with the alleged cause, and the audience hasn’t noticed that the cause was merely asserted, not proved.
“If there really was any evidence that carbon emissions caused global warming, don’t you think we would have heard all about it ad nauseam by now?
“The world has spent $50 billion on global warming since 1990, and we have not found any actual evidence that carbon emissions cause global warming. Evidence consists of observations made by someone at some time that supports the idea that carbon emissions cause global warming. Computer models and theoretical calculations are not evidence, they are just theory.
“What is going to happen over the next decade as global temperatures continue not to rise? The Labor Government is about to deliberately wreck the economy in order to reduce carbon emissions. If the reasons later turn out to be bogus, the electorate is not going to re-elect a Labor government for a long time. When it comes to light that the carbon scare was known to be bogus in 2008, the ALP is going to be regarded as criminally negligent or ideologically stupid for not having seen through it. And if the Liberals support the general thrust of their actions, they will be seen likewise.
“The onus should be on those who want to change things to provide evidence for why the changes are necessary. The Australian public is eventually going to have to be told the evidence anyway, so it might as well be told before wrecking the economy.”
80 Comments
July 18, 2008 at 6:10 pm
Love your blog – always something worthwhile to read. I now await the commentary (sorry can’t offer a reasoned perspective on this entry due to friday drinks, but plan to look at it again over the weekend).
Hope you have your hard hat on given the subject of this entry.
July 18, 2008 at 8:59 pm
Why are the ’sheeple’ so asleep on this issue? Maybe it’s some unconscious masochistic desire… Well that is fine if *you* want to live like a pauper in an Orwellian society; but I have higher ambitions.
Keep informed – http://www.icecap.us
July 18, 2008 at 9:25 pm
You don’t have a trace of, er, scepticism, Poneke, towards someone who describes himself without a trace of irony as being a ‘rocket scientist’?
July 18, 2008 at 9:27 pm
Ross, I like this quote:
“The atmospheric greenhouse effect is a flea on the back of an oceanic elephant and the influence of CO2 but a microbe on the back of the flea and the influence of anthropogenic CO2 but a molecule on the back of the microbe.”
July 18, 2008 at 10:57 pm
No doubt anything I say here will be dismissed as a “true believer” trying to shut down debate. I will only say that every one of the points he makes in the article I have seen discussed with rigour by scientists. A number of the points which he claims all scientists agree with are as far as I can tell actually very strongly disagreed with. I’ll leave to actual scientists to voice their disagreement.
July 19, 2008 at 12:12 am
Like the erroneous analogies drawn by the advocates of anthropogenic global warming the metaphoric quote by jayman also contains an inconvenient flawed analogy that puts a flea in the ear for those flies and ticks that are eaten by the tickbird while riding on the backs of elephants making a good meal of them but disappointed with the elephant’s back being completely devoid of any fleas.
July 19, 2008 at 9:35 am
It becomes a murky old world when expertise is selectively used as in this instance. It begats ‘I’ll see your expert and raise you mine’ flame wars… which never clear the air .
The blog Deltoid has a refutation of Evan’s article.
So, where were we?
July 19, 2008 at 10:45 am
I read the Deltoid blog and enjoyed it, but it’s hardly science either. It doesn’t address the lack of a hot spot, and fails to consider other causes of stratospheric cooling. It doesn’t refute the specific claims about the satellite data. It asserts the quality of the non-satellite temperature data in the face of many well-identified problems. But I thought the rebuttal of carbon preceding temperature was was well-made, and the forcing model graphs were very interesting. However, I’m cautious about these climate models: they don’t have the same scientific status as, say, Newtonian mechanics, which makes precise testable predictions again and again. I rather think climate science is still in its infancy, and the models are correspondingly uncertain.
So I think Deltoid has a few things in favour of AGW, but there is still plenty of other evidence against, notably temperatures and climate for the last 10 years. An ongoing discussion is needed.
I strongly recommend reading the following background article by the UAH scientists who produce one of the global temperature datasets.
http://www.uah.edu/News/climatebackground.php
Some quotes:
“There is no scientific evidence to support the belief that Earth’s climate is stable and will not change if human activity does not intervene”
“The current level of knowledge about the climate doesn’t provide the tools needed to predict when rapid natural climate changes will occur and what forms it might take. This makes it impossible to say with high confidence how much human factors might influence climate change. ”
“A fundamental point that needs to be understood is that if any of these proposals (including the Kyoto protocol) are implemented, they will have an effect on the climate so small that it cannot be detected.”
July 19, 2008 at 11:26 am
How are all the NH summer 2008 ice coverage going.
I recall many AGW proponents putting money on the 2008 ice cover being lower than the previous record low set in 2007, one one this blog a few months ago.
July 19, 2008 at 12:51 pm
As a skeptic, I’d like to say that Dr Evans knows what he’s talking about, but his
credentials do not inspire confidence. Apparently, he has no formal training as a climatoligist, geologist or any other relevant science. Having said that, he is probably better qualified to discuss the issue than is Al Gore.
http://www.lavoisier.com.au/papers/articles/DavidEvansbio.html
July 19, 2008 at 12:59 pm
The blog Deltoid kicks the article to pieces. This is what Evans claims, these are the facts.
http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2008/07/the_australians_war_on_science_16.php
July 19, 2008 at 1:02 pm
What exactly is he a doctor of?
It seems to me with his ‘rocket scientist’ linr he’s sort of trying to fluff that point. It sounds to me like he’s an accountant – working out the economic carbon accounting model.
Always wise to listen to the accountants for a full and reasonable assessment of the scientific data in these situations.
July 19, 2008 at 1:47 pm
‘What exactly is he a doctor of?’
An apparent auto biography :
http://www.lavoisier.com.au/papers/articles/DavidEvansbio.html
July 19, 2008 at 3:36 pm
Actually, Peterc, I think David Evans does have reasonable credentials for the debate at hand. From reading his self-description he’s not exactly a shrinking violet, but an enthusiastic self-publicist.
But, for all that, he is just one individual, and in an area of science as complex as climate change, it’s not surprising to find a level of dissent. People seem to confuse consensus with unanimity.
Poneke, I don’t understand why you got so excited about this chap and described it as ‘breaking news’. The points he makes are very well-traversed and have been comprehensively rebutted.
July 19, 2008 at 4:15 pm
Poneke, may I suggest you read Tim Lambert’s analysis of the article? It seems that Evans trots out a number of long-debunked arguments.
July 19, 2008 at 4:54 pm
You don’t have a trace of, er, scepticism, Poneke, towards someone who describes himself without a trace of irony as being a ‘rocket scientist’?
Carol I actually thought Evans was being funny and taking the piss out of himself calling himself that.
I have no comment or view on his actual article myself. I wrote it up as a straight news story, merely reporting what he wrote.
You will note that it is filed under “skeptical.”
July 19, 2008 at 6:18 pm
The consensus is crumbling dear Poneke.
More and more scietists are outing themselvces as deniers.
This week we had Dr Vincent Gray who resigned from the NZ Royal Socoety and the physicists body in the US also dmits to doubts.
It all comes as governments seek to cement their authoritarian emissions trading policies.
Seems like there is a battle ahead- one between truth and freedom and those who wish to control us in the name of Gaia, rather than the socialism that dare not speak its name.
No Minister has more, along with a reference to a lively piece from Andrew Bolt that appears in the Melbourne Herald Sun.
I cannot imagine the Sunday Star-Times running a feature like it, can you?
July 19, 2008 at 6:59 pm
The points he makes are very well-traversed and have been comprehensively rebutted
Carol, I’m not sure that the following has been rebutted; it seems pretty straightforward reporting.
“The satellites that measure the world’s temperature all say that the warming trend ended in 2001, and that the temperature has dropped about 0.6C in the past year”
You could argue about whether this is enough data to proclaim the end of a trend, but certainly temperature has been flat to declining over that period. It puzzles me that many AGW supporters seem unwilling to admit this. Is a simple fact so dangerous?
July 19, 2008 at 7:54 pm
You will note that it is filed under “skeptical.”
I see your scepticism extends to headlining Evans as a “top Australian scientist”.
July 19, 2008 at 11:26 pm
Closer to home….
http://www.odt.co.nz/opinion/opinion/13601/climate-change-debate-being-distorted-dogma
By the way Hansen is not a climate scientist either.
He specialises in physics astronomny and mathematics.
July 20, 2008 at 5:35 am
Comprehensively rebutted?
Tell that to the 31,000 scientists, many who are authorities in their field. They have just signed a petition saying the science is not settled and don’t make any decisions on carbon trading.
Check out this link: http://www.petitionproject.org/
July 20, 2008 at 7:29 am
Malcolm said…
However, I’m cautious about these climate models: they don’t have the same scientific status as, say, Newtonian mechanics, which makes precise testable predictions again and again.
Modeling of causal-effect relationship is done in 3 major categories.
1) Well established models that solidly connect the causes (inputs) into the effects (outputs). Meaning that there are defined equations , ie, structurally link the inputs to the outputs. This type of modeling is called white-box, since the structural equations that connects the inputs to the outputs are known. Newtonian mechanics falls in this category. The following equation is a very simple white-box type model taught in 5th form. It is a SISO model (ie, single input single output) where x is the input into a dynamical system S and y is the output from S.
y = 2*x + 1
Block diagram can be represented as in below:
x –> S –> y
If the input to S is 3 (ie, x=3), then S spits out 7 (ie, y=7).
Dynamical climate system is not SISO and it is not linear and independent as the above example. It is a:
- MIMO (multiple input multiple output) system,
- highly non-linear (ie, some variables appear as product/s as of with each other or have powers that is different from one, such terms as X*Y^2 or X^3/Y, etc…),
- multi-coupled (some processes are made up of 2 or more sub-processes which they are link via common variables but the dynamics of those common variables are different in the sub-process – eg, say X is a common variable that appears to couple in a process P1 and process P2, where X appears as dX/dt in P1 , the first derivative, but it just appears as X , non-derivative in P2)
Most climate models (including those that are adopted at the IPCC) falls in this category of white-box modeling.
2) The second type of models is when you have data , ie inputs/causes and outputs/effects already collected, but there is no known structural relation to connect the inputs to the effects, meaning there is no such equations that link X into Y. This type of models is called blind dynamical system identification. You chuck the data into the algorithm, and it gives you the structural equation , it is more like a reverse process of white-box. This type of blind identification is called black-box modeling, since the modeler has no prior knowledge of the structural relation between the inputs/causes and the effects/outputs. This type of modeling is starting to find its way to the community of climate researchers and modelers.
3) The last type is called gray-box, where some of the structural relations between the inputs and outputs are known as a priori, however their parameters are not known, and therefore needed to be identified via algorithmic ways.
Here are some facts:
- In using White box modeling, we’re assuming that we know everything about the dynamics of the climate, that is there is no hidden structural equations out there to be found. What we currently have is all that we need to know about. But we all know that the current white-box modelings being used by climate scientists at the moment says otherwise.
- In adopting Black-box modeling, the structural equations produced by the models, one has no guarantee that the structural relations do indeed represent the true underlying physics that connects the inputs to the outputs. So, one has to be cautious about wholeheartedly endorsing models that were found by blind identifications.
- In adopting the Gray-box modeling, well you get both the problems I have highlighted for the white-box and black-box above.
Aha, I see that Evans background is a PhD in electrical engineering. Well, the guy is well qualified to comment on AGW, because the main argument for and against AGW rests purely on numerical modeling. If you can argue on the how the model works (inefficiencies , wrong formulations using wrong assumptions or inconsistent with observations, etc…), then you’re almost informed on the subject exactly as those who do the data collection (ie, the climate scientists).
The data has to be analysed and modeled after its been gathered and this is where a numerical modeler can come in. The background of the modeler is irrelevant as long as he/she understands how to solve a numerical model (algorithmic-wise). Evans background fits this perfectly. Note to readers here that the majority of models use by engineers are the same ones that you see use in the IPCC reports and this is fact. You can find modeling algorithms as Monte Carlo, Fast Fourier Transform and many more in the IPCC which are the bedrocks & foundations of engineering practice. So, there is no surprise that Evans is informed on the subject , perhaps not so deep as those who are full time climate scientists but at least he can debate on the whys & hows of the model.
I am no climate scientist myself, however I always argue on my understanding of the numerical models. I find that there are lots of misunderstanding in blogosphere, where if someone is skeptic, and not a climate scientist , his/her view must be completely dismissed , since he/she is not a climate scientist. If one understands numerical models, then you can be well informed on the issues on AGW .I may not argue with Dr. David Wratt of NIWA on the climate outlook for NZ or specific situations related to the climate, since it is not my area, however I can surely debate with him on the application of numerical models, which is something we’re both in same par.
July 20, 2008 at 9:42 am
Come along Edwin. The logical fallacy that you refer to…the argumentum ad verecundiam has been thoroughly Fisked long ago.
An example : A random sample (the first five names from the list alphabetically) would be Earl M. Aagaard, Charles W. Aami, Roger L. Aamodt, Wilbur A. Aanes, M. Robert Aaron.
1. Earl Aagaard. Field: Biology, interested explicitly in Intelligent Design. Relevant publications on climate change? None.
2. Charles W. Aami. Field: Unknown. I couldn’t find any person by that name in connection to any scientific field, let alone climate science. Relevant publications on climate change? None.
3. Roger L. Aamodt. Field: Oncology. Relevant publications on climate change? None.
4. Wilbur A. Aanes. Field: Veterinary surgery (specifically “large animal surgery”). Relevant publications on climate change? None (although he seems to be well-published on equine surgery, which I’m sure has some bearing on climate change).
5. M. Robert Aaron, DECEASED. Field: Telecommunications. Relevant publications on climate change? None.
Plenty more examples out there in google land.
So,where were we?
July 20, 2008 at 12:55 pm
Poneke, I like your writing, and will most likely keep reading this blog, but please don’t embarrass yourself with this anti-science rubbish.
July 20, 2008 at 1:54 pm
Poneke, I like your writing, and will most likely keep reading this blog, but please don’t embarrass yourself with this anti-science rubbish.
Quite the contrary, a scientist at the centre of a scientific debate offering a contrary view is the very essence of science.
Calling it anti-science is religion, not science. Religion is the antithesis of science.
July 20, 2008 at 2:06 pm
“Anti-science” forsooth!
I’ve noticed on this blog that AGW proponents tend to resort to emotive or ad hominen attacks rather than debate the science. That, more than anything else, has led me to a more sceptical position.
I’m still open minded, but it mystifies me that AGW proponents refuse to debate the last ten years of the temperature record. In fact, the most recent years of the temperature record are so awkward, some AGW proponents seem to deny that they exist at all.
The fact is, recent data highlights that the climate models are incomplete and tentative, and not yet capable of accurate predictions. Or rather, that the predictions I’ve seen have all been falsified.
Surely that is cause for some debate?
July 20, 2008 at 3:55 pm
“I’ve noticed on this blog that AGW proponents tend to resort to emotive or ad hominen attacks rather than debate the science”
Quite the opposite. It is the “skeptics” who decide which science they’ll accept, and which they will ignore. Witness Evan’s ignorance/denial of; the greenhouse signature, the way instrumental temperature record is collected – which he waves away as an artifact of the “urban heat island” as if resarchers were ignorant dupes and unaware of this influence, the clear measured warming trend (and the fact that 2008s low temp is largely due to La Nina and an extreme low of the 11 year solar cycle) and that carbon is a positive feedback of increased temperature (which is certainly not a reason to celebrate).
If people are frustrated, is that the same things are said over and over and over again. Despite being comprehensively debunked, the same points are made as if being expressed for the first time. Take this article: “BREAKING NEWS” and the aura that something completely new and exciting is being said, rather than the same old tired and rehashed arguments.
No-one has a monopoly on truth. But if you’re going to overturn an established theory in science, especially one that has a wealth of observation, measurement and theoretical science behind it, the burden of proof is on the challenger. Yet we see nothing of substance.
July 20, 2008 at 4:14 pm
I see Fairfacts, that you are a reader of Drudge.Hence ‘and the physicists body in the US also admits to doubts.’
Sorry,it doesn’t. ‘The basis for the story is an article published in an APS newsletter (not journal) by Christoper Monckton. Monckton’s article now carries a disclaimer saying:
The following article has not undergone any scientific peer review. Its conclusions are in disagreement with the overwhelming opinion of the world scientific community. The Council of the American Physical Society disagrees with this article’s conclusions’.
July 20, 2008 at 4:21 pm
Slightly at a tangent. A NZ Science Media Centre came into existence a few weeks ago, and its first action was to issue statements from two pro-climate change advocates – Dave Low and David Wratt. As the Centre is 100% funded by the government (read taxpayer), one would think it would make strenuous efforts to be neutral and objective to show it is at arm’s length from the Beltway.
Promulgating one side of a highly political story without seeking other views is all a bit too cosey. It also goes against the ethic of science to stack your front page with a pro-government bias. If the Centre wants to be taken seriously, it needs to show better judgement in future.
July 20, 2008 at 5:27 pm
georgedarroch: your arguments are well made, but I have a somewhat different view on several of them. Let me pick just one: that the lower recent temperatures are consistent with the AGW hypothesis.
As evidence, I offer this post from one of the most prominent AGW bloggers, Tamino. This shows a predictive test to choose between the ’still-warming’ and ‘not-warming’ hypotheses, (see the 4th graph in Tamino’s post). The data set chosen (GISS) is controversial and I think is less reliable than satellite measurements. But let’s accept it nonetheless, as this is the data Tamino has used to construct the test.
The current GISS data is in the “not-warming wins” zone, with a 2008 annual average of “34″ which is a .34 degree temperature anomaly (see the “annmean” for 2008 in the table, right at the bottom). In fact, it goes beyond Tamino’s ‘no-more-warming’ zone down into the ‘cooling’ zone.
Tamino seeks two years of data in the ‘zone’ before accepting or rejecting the hypotheses’. So it will be December 2009 at the earliest before Tamino’s test could reject the “still-warming” hypothesis. Nonetheless, the current temperatures are clearly way below what was expected by this prominent advocate of AGW.
So the best attempt to construct a falsifiable test, by one of the leading AGW science bloggers, taking into account all his knowledge in January 2008, is currently in the “not warming”, and in fact the ‘cooling’ zone. (Unless, of course, I have misinterpreted data somewhere.)
I think that is something of substance.
July 20, 2008 at 5:31 pm
I have met Dave and he has a good sense of irony.
In a memo he wrote (in Bali I think) he said something like this about his work experience “I suppose this makes me an honest to God ‘rocket scientist’” – or words to that effect.
I suspect some sub editor has decided to drop the quotes out of this story.
July 20, 2008 at 9:11 pm
Has Dr Evans tried to publish any of his scientific breakthroughs in a peer reviewed climate science journal? I had a look in scholar and couldn’t find anything. Can anybody else find his papers?
Why is he trying so hard to convince the public instead of writing papers to help correct and progress the body of science?
Should policy makers get their science from expert assessments of published scientific papers or from news paper articles and blogs?
I think the scientific method works and I prefer that policy makers continue to rely on the published science.
I don’t understand why so many of you lot think that the scientific system is corrupt or broken. How else should policy makers make decisions on an issue like climate change? Surely you don’t expect Rudd to do a degree in climate science so that he himself can decide whether to implement an ETS.
July 20, 2008 at 9:47 pm
Greg: this argument is part of the scientific method.
If we rely on nothing but the opinion of experts, then the post-modernist critique of science succeeds. Science runs the risk of collapsing into a vacuous value system controlled by dominant political forces. The history of science is replete with examples.
- The germ theory of disease
- Heliocentric astronomy
- Vaccination
- Hygeine for childbirth
- Evolutionary theory
- Continental drift
- The effects of orbital wobbles on ice ages
were all bitterly opposed by the establishment of the day. In fact, many of our major scientific advances were made by gifted amateurs. This continues to be the case; our world is undergoing incredible change based on the scientific discoveries of college dropouts like Sergey Brin.
So to paraphrase a german playwright, when a scientist appeals to consensus, I reach for my revolver.
July 20, 2008 at 10:20 pm
Really a debate for scientists not 4×4 salesmen and property developers.
July 20, 2008 at 10:38 pm
‘Has Dr Evans tried to publish any of his scientific breakthroughs in a peer reviewed climate science journal?’
And therein lies the rub,Greg…as you have so correctly identified.
Folk like Evans and Monckton and 31,000 anyones can say and attest to anything. How do folk account for the veracity of their comments? Well, we can but rely on the considered opinions of their peers.
I note that this ‘breaking news’ has appeared as an oped article in an overseas newspaper that has an anti climate change bias.I certainly don’t begrudge Dr Evans from making a living,but all religiosity aside, I can only look at it as an untested opinion apparently heralded as some sort of game breaker.
Which, of course, it isn’t. As even the most cursory look about indicates. Forget that the good Dr Evans hasn’t has his thoughts peer reviewed.Worry that some folk buy it and that they all think no-one will ever check.
July 20, 2008 at 10:58 pm
>Carol I actually thought Evans was being funny >and taking the piss out of himself calling himself >that.
>I have no comment or view on his actual article >myself. I wrote it up as a straight news story, >merely reporting what he wrote.
>You will note that it is filed under “skeptical.”
Poneke, I’ll concede that the rocket scientist bit was intended as a joke [if Evans is a rocket scientist, what does that make James Hansen, who actually does work for NASA?].
But I think you are being just a little disingenuous in claiming to have no view on his article – you did highlight it as ‘breaking news’. In general, in your coverage of climate change you appear to accord more importance to dissenting rather than conventional views. I’m sure the Royal Society’s statement on climate change didn’t pass you by (nor Vincent Gray’s dramatic resignation that it prompted).
Though I fully support the Royal Society’s statement I actually agree with John’s point above about the independence of the Science Media Centre. It would be nice to think that science is more enduring than the administration of the day.
July 21, 2008 at 9:03 am
Carol said…
if Evans is a rocket scientist, what does that make James Hansen, who actually does work for NASA?
James Hansen is not a rocket scientist, in fact he is a climate scientist and there is a huge difference here. Being working at NASA doesn’t mean you’re a qualify as a rocket scientist. NASA employ different types of scientists, from the domain of biology, chemistry, physics and so forth. Don’t tell me that a NASA biologist does know how a rocket runs. A NASA biologist would have no clue at all about the operations of a rocket and this is fact.
On the other Evans could and in fact be labeled as a rocket scientist, because his specialist skills is in Electrical engineering. Electrical engineering do involve in building rockets, ie, its control systems (hardware/software) for operation & navigations, its communication systems (state-of-the-art DSP – digital signal processing technology) and more.
Rocket scientists are physicists & engineers (software , mechanical, scientific numerical modelers, including electrical and other related fields) and not all NASA scientists are knowledgeable about rocket.
I have mentioned in my previous post that most (I say majority) of the IPCC numerical models are familiar to engineers. In fact some of the mathematics used in climate numerical modeling had made their debut in engineering design, ie, their application were first made in commercial engineering design or engineering related peer review publications and I can list these techniques here, but I think that this is the wrong forum.
Here is how you view things from a different perspective. Electrical engineers such as Evans, could read peer review publications in climate modeling with no problem (even with complex equations), remember it is the same maths that are used climate numerical modeling (majority) as well as those applied in engineering design but its just that they’re different domain (climate science vs electrical engineering for example).
On the other hand, not every climate scientist could read climate related numerical modeling peer review papers and this is fact. Some can but the majority can’t. If anyone here thinks you’re a climate scientist and want to prove me wrong, then please let me know so that I can cite you publications in climate numerical modeling peer review papers and see if you could understand them.
My main point is, certain people are frequently dismissive about other skeptics’ point of view simply because they’re not full time climate scientist and this is ignorant. People should find out what other related fields/disciplines that are relevant to climate numerical modeling rather than frequently shouting out , shut-up you’re not a climate scientist.
July 21, 2008 at 9:19 am
Poneke – Carol makes an excellent point. Wouldn’t a balanced skepticism (and skepticism that isn’t balanced doesn’t have a strong claim to being genuine skepticism) give equal time to both sides? And, in the spirit of investigative skepticism, would it have hurt to take a look at the record and linkages of a writer you choose to quote at full-article length? To draw a crude analogy: would you uncritically recycle a press release from Ian Wishart, describing him as a “top New Zealand journalist” in your title? Or would you exercise a little skepticism?
Malcolm: This thread is getting way off Evans’ article; but you’ve commented on your disagreements with the two pro-AGW sites Deltoid and Tamino. In particular, you say of Deltoid (which is, of course, the site that demolished Evans): “So I think Deltoid has a few things in favour of AGW, but there is still plenty of other evidence against, notably temperatures and climate for the last 10 years. An ongoing discussion is needed.” Have you actually engaged in debate on these sites, where a number of contributors have specialist knowledge of climate science, physics, statistics, etc? I know the debate on Deltoid sometimes gets, well, robust – but if you’re polite I’m sure you’ll get a hearing. Or, if Deltoid is too rude, you could try Tamino or even Realclimate. (Yes, I’m assuming you haven’t shown up on these sites unless under another name, so I’m calling your bluff. But I’m also not calling your bluff: I’d be genuinely interested to see how your views stack up.)
July 21, 2008 at 9:55 am
malcolm – re: scientific method
Didn’t the self correcting nature of the scientific method succeed in all of these cases?
All I am suggesting is that if David Evans has a good case then he should publish it in a paper that can further the debate. I don’t think he has done this.
July 21, 2008 at 10:13 am
David’s essay could be more readily dismissed if it was a unique event. The fact is that as more and more scientists from different (but relevant) disciplines get involved in the great debate more and more are taking a skeptical stance.
We should not be surprised. This has happened many times before.
So before we dismiss Dave as a congenial crank and before labelling everyone who does not toe the IPCC line as “Cranks” I suggest you ponder this list at the URL below.
Can we be sure these people are ALL lunatics, denialists, or cranks?
http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRecord_id=37ae6e96-802a-23ad-4c8a-edf6d8150789
These are not peer reviewed papers but reviews etc referring to peer reviewed papers – they are readable. But if Dave is a crank he seems to be keeping good company.
July 21, 2008 at 10:33 am
Ian – yes, I asked a couple of questions on Tamino relevant to the recent temperature record.
One question referred to one of Tamino’s smoothed temperature lines, which looked to me to have a trend component (when he was suggesting it didn’t), thus understating the effect of recent temperature changes. So I asked about that.
The other question was about turning points. Tamino claimed to not be cherry picking a starting point in the mid-1970’s because he has good statistical reasons for identifying it as a turning point. So I asked him, if he was so good at identifying turning points, when the next one would be – or whether he expected the seas to eventually boil. This was a little mischevious, but was intended to highlight that his “turning point” claim was something of a post-hoc convenience, and you can’t just extrapolate a historical trend forever.
Neither question made it through moderation. So I gave up. Ironically, of course, it looks as if we might be in the middle of the next turning point right now.
I do, by the way, have specialized knowledge of probability, statistics and data analysis. But I don’t think that matters much – my arguments should stand or fall on their own merits.
July 21, 2008 at 11:49 am
Malcolm – well, if you sent comments to Tamino, keep it up. I’m surprised they weren’t accepted – his site makes plenty of space for doubters. I can only suggest you keep trying, if you think your points are worth making. And if Tamino really doesn’t like you, I assume a door at Deltoid, Realclimate, etc will be open.
There’s a general principle here (at least, I hope it’s a general one). Many, perhaps most, of the interested readers at a blog like Poneke’s aren’t equipped to follow the really arcane scientific arguments. Needless to say, this includes myself. But we can make our own judgements about argumentations and about who’s left standing at the end. (I’m not one-thousandth the tennis player Federer is – but I can watch other players take him on, and come to my own conclusions about how they rate.) So it’s genuinely useful to watch your kinds of views tested by more informed commenters. Put them out there, and send us the links.
Incidentally, I guess this applies to Falafulu Fisi as well, assuming he wasn’t just engaging in some industrial-duty oneupmanship…
[Poneke adds: Yes, how dare anyone think that ordinary folk who read blogs or read anything at all should be confronted with dissenting voices against the current secular religion. Only the high priests of the religion, good intelligent ones such as yourself, have the knowledge to interpret the faith for the masses, and so nobody else should be allowed to.]
July 21, 2008 at 12:01 pm
Owen posted essentially the same comment linking to Marc Morano’s list over at Hot Topic, and Sam Vilain had a good look at it. You can be your own judge…
July 21, 2008 at 12:17 pm
I like the way you throw these “global warming is bullshit” entries amongst all the ones on Wellington public transport.
I just wish the warmists would practice what they preach – can you imagine how many “Pope Miles” were racked up by the hundreds of thousands of pilgrims who flocked from around the world to Sydney to hear that the world is in peril. Perhaps the Pope could look at a spiritual offsets system that would work like carbon credits – paying someone to sin less so you can sin as much as you want.
July 21, 2008 at 12:57 pm
“Poneke adds: Yes, how dare anyone think that ordinary folk who read blogs or read anything at all should be confronted with dissenting voices against the current secular religion.”
Poneke, your contribution to the climate change debate seems to be to give the dissenting voices a megaphone.
[Poneke adds: To the happily deaf and wilfully blind, maybe. This is one tiny blog among millions. What is so scary about it?]
July 21, 2008 at 1:03 pm
Sam’s response is totally irrelevant to the question I asked.
I am not saying that every one of these opinions is correct or not subject to challenge or that every word is to be found in a peer reviewed paper.
I simple asked a simple question “Can we be sure that all these people are cranks” when judged by their experience and qualifications.
So yes, go the Sam’s response and judge for yourself whether he answered or addressed my question. We know that for every opinion on this matter there is a contradictory one. Indeed Denis Dutton’s excellent web page “Climate Debate Daily” tries to match them up. http://www.climatedebatedaily.com/
Do can we assume that everyone of those authors on one side of Denis’s ledger is a noble scientist promoting universal truth while all the others are cranks, denialists and “lunatic fringers”?
[Poneke adds: But of course. You should have heard the howls that greeted Denis starting that site. It was claimed that only one side was worthy of being heard, and it wasn't the dissenting side, that is for sure. http://poneke.wordpress.com/2008/01/11/climate/ Particularly but not exclusively, look at Mr Judd's comments. ]
July 21, 2008 at 1:54 pm
Lawrence,
Many of us describe carbon credits as a re-run of the Catholic Churches trade in indulgences.
So they would not even have to re-invent that particular wheel. By paying the Church and indulgence you could reduce your time in purgatory because this was compensating your sin with all the good deeds of priests etc who were supported by the indulgences.
So in the new world you can burn fossil fuel if you pay someone else to plant a tree, or do other good works. We really are talking about carbon indulgences. And do not be surprised if the new Church, the State, creams of a little as the carbon indulgences pass through their hands, and if not all the carbon priests turn out to entirely committed to good deeds.
July 21, 2008 at 2:04 pm
Poneke, there’s nothing scary at all about it; I regard this as a very civilised blog. Just wish you’d pass the megaphone around a bit more!
[Poneke: This is my blog. I write about things that I want to write about. I don't tell other people what to put on their blogs. When people tell me not to write about something, my inclination, born from years of journalism, is to write more about it, as, at its best, journalism is about publishing what somebody doesn't want to be published. All the rest is public relations.]
July 21, 2008 at 2:23 pm
[Poneke adds: Yes, how dare anyone think that ordinary folk who read blogs or read anything at all should be confronted with dissenting voices against the current secular religion. Only the high priests of the religion, good intelligent ones such as yourself, have the knowledge to interpret the faith for the masses, and so nobody else should be allowed to.]
Very disingenuous, Poneke. And at an alarming disconnect from what I actually said. I suggested that most readers (”ordinary folk” – your words), among whom I explicitly included myself, don’t usually have the time available for the lengthy and demanding study required to master one of more of the disciplines relevant to climate science, and to keep up with the latest theories and debates within the disciplines. (We’re constantly told, by BOTH sides of the debate, that climate science is complex and evolving – are you claiming otherwise?) I’m assuming that, for the most part, all the interested general reader can do is act as spectator to the debate, and try to gradually inform him/herself while filtering out the name-calling. If this doesn’t apply to your blog’s readership, and if in fact there’s a large & silent audience here who are well-read in several branches of climate science, as well as physics, statistics, etc, then I’ll have to apologise for misreading things and slink away with my tail between my legs.
A commenter here, Malcolm, has made some large claims. (Eg: “The fact is, recent data highlights that the climate models are incomplete and tentative, and not yet capable of accurate predictions. Or rather, that the predictions I’ve seen have all been falsified. Surely that is cause for some debate?” ) Yes, it may well be cause for some debate, if Malcolm can back up his claims. I wouldn’t be able to test them seriously without extensive study – I’m talking months and possibly years, time I don’t have – and my readings of the climate discussion have made me very aware that instant expertise is not an option. So, why not suggest the debate be taken up with people who can really test the propositions – which is, quite literally, all my comment did? Why does that alarm you so much?
And the usual stuff about religion… It’s tempting to turn this meme straight back at you: the Evans article is perfect as the latest vision in the desert, revealed to the Chosen People as they struggle to throw off the shackles of their Babylonian IPCC captivity and smite the unrighteous global-warming believers. (OK, a playground session of “I am, but what are you?” is probably not very helpful.)
July 21, 2008 at 2:41 pm
Ian said…
Incidentally, I guess this applies to Falafulu Fisi as well
I used to post there at RealClimate in 2007 and to tell you the truth, a vast number of my posts (perhaps 85%) were rejected. I became disinterested in trying to debate over there, since the moderator didn’t approve the majority of my posts.
I once challenged Prof. Gavin Schmidt over there over the publication of Dr. Schwartz’s paper on climate sensitivity which Gavin dismissed as misleading but he never replied back to my challenge. My challenge was not about supporting Dr. Schwartz’s proposed value for climate sensitivity as to say that it was the correct one over the accepted IPCC value but to see if he was just being dismissive of anything that puts doubt over the IPCC bible or perhaps he was just being dismissive for the sake of it. In his dismissal, Gavin claimed that Schwartz’s derivation was wrong, that he should have used a simple first order auto-regression (AR) model. I asked him, why not consider AR of order 2 , order 3 , order 4, … order n-th? He didn’t reply but stated that they will post about it. AR modeling is the type of gray-box modeling I did mention in previous posts. The problem with adopting this type of modeling, is that anyone could fit the data to any AR order, be it 1, 2, 3, 4, and so forth. Usually a statistical test (eg, Akaike Information Criteria – AIC , Bayesian Information Criteria – BIC or others) is applied to these different model structures identified to select the order that gives the least error , which can be regarded as the best model to adopt. Perhaps Gavin realized that he couldn’t dismissed outright Dr. Schwartz’s sensitivity value he proposed (which derived using first order linear model), because there was no test that applied at all to find out if indeed that AR of order 1 was the correct one. Dr. Schwartz’s paper didn’t use any goodness fitness test such as AIC, BIC or any others. Dr. Schwartz’s model was a white-box type. He started out with a known model (which he derived) and deduce conclusions by testing it with observations.
I read Dr. Schwartz’s paper and noted that he derived his sensitivity using a linear model, which in my opinion that the model he proposed isn’t robust enough. As a specialist in numerical computing myself, I use linear model where the model generalization is not paramount (suitable for narrow domain only), ie, it works fine. When the data is quite wide (range of values / different types of data) and generalization becomes important, then non-linear model is suitable, because using a linear one in such situation gives a very high error rate (wide disagreement between the data and the model prediction) , so linear model is therefore inferior or almost useless in this case. So, this was the reason I wasn’t jumping up & down and sing hallelujah when Dr. Schwartz published his paper, because of the linearity of the model derivation he used.
July 21, 2008 at 3:17 pm
Falafulu, you’re sort of making my point for me. I don’t have the background to understand or challenge your comments, and – at the risk of Poneke calling me a dissent-stifling high priest again – I bet most readers here don’t either. So, the problem is: how can we get to see a specialist like yourself, who questions some aspects of AGW modeling, credibly tested? If you can’t point to debate with peers, I don’t know where to look; all I can do is wait and try to work out how the consensus is developing. In the meantime, and sorry to be abrupt here, if it comes down to a choice between the IPCC (and NIWA, and the RSNZ) or guys on blogs, all my instincts will go for the former.
July 21, 2008 at 3:32 pm
Well, I guess one of the great things about this blog is that genuine posts don’t get rejected, no matter how much Poneke might disagree with them. So thanks Poneke.
Please don’t get me wrong – I’m not opposed to dissent at all. It’s healthy. It’s just a question of balance.
July 21, 2008 at 4:37 pm
Poneke, Owen, Falafulu and Malcom.
Your comments seem to suggest that it’s the responsibility of someone like David Parker to do _all_ the research on climate change himself and only trust his own information.
If you were in Parker’s shoes and had to make policy decision’s based on a risk assessment of climate change impacts, how would you make sure you got the best assessment of the science. The field is too big for one person to study in detail alone.
What kind of process would you need to rely on to get this information summarised into a form that you could use?
July 21, 2008 at 6:22 pm
Ian said…
I don’t have the background to understand or challenge your comments.
Here is a link to Dr. Schwartz’s paper (see PDF link at the bottom).
Greg said…
Your comments seem to suggest that it’s the responsibility of someone like David Parker.
I don’t know, but perhaps you could say that to many Government departments who have given advises (based on thorough researches) only to be dismissed by the Cabinet. How often do we hear Cullen (& cabinet), dismissing the advises from Treasury or tendency to pressure (indirectly) the NZ Reserve Bank governor to implement certain policies that accord with their wishes? Well, a few times. Why would the advise on climate change be more favorable to the government to listen to compared to other advises received from other Departments? Note, the modeling done at the NZ Reserve Bank are similar to the modeling used in the IPCC (again same types of mathematics, but different domain of application). See the list of NZRB discussion papers here. You can find the same algorithms in those papers with some of the models used in the IPCC. So, my point is, the government takes one type of modeling seriously (climate) but often dismissing the advises based on one type of modeling (econometric), although they’re similar types of numerical models.
July 21, 2008 at 6:59 pm
Hi greg – going to have to challenge you on your comment about Hon David Parker and making a policy decision.
Policy analysis is not just making a decision based on risk assessment of climate change impacts. Its first a question of asking “Is there a problem” otherwise you start your analysis from the perspective of having a solution looking for a problem.
Information and advice to the government should be coming from a variety of sources and filtered, assessed and analysed by officals. There is a large body of officials out there to support decision makers should they choose to make use of those officals. Supporting those officals are a number of frameworks for good policy analysis and all of them start with the basic premise “what is the problem?”.
The next step is to then consider what is the size of the problem compared to other problems (i.e. should I act now on this or save that drowning child first? decisions decisions, maybe lunch first would be an idea). We then move to the world of options for solutions, costs and benefits of different options and by this stage if done well the next steps tend to casscade out nicely so that you have the ability to then present to the public your decisions and the reasoning supporting your decision making (even if it is ideological or decided on a flip of the coin).
In the world of economics there is still debate about whether climate change is a problem, the copenhagen consensus sees a number of other problems of far more importance and providing a greater benefit for the world and this consensus is backed up some very independent well qualified international economists.
So greg I have outlined a way to make decisions, it remains to be seen though whether this decision making framework is applied.
July 21, 2008 at 7:29 pm
John:
Whatever the reason behind the SMC’s articles coming out on one “side” of the climate issue, I really doubt its because of, in your words, “[...] a pro-government bias.” If they have any bias, it’ll be a pro-science, anti-media wa-wa bias
Malcom:
“[...] were all bitterly opposed by the establishment of the day.” I’d be inclined to distinguish between issues opposed by predominantly ideological arguments (e.g. from religious circles), rather than from evidence-based reasons myself.
“many of our major scientific advances were made by gifted amateurs”—this point is sometimes over-sold in the mainstream media, etc. Everyone likes an underdog and the thought (daydream!) that “they could too.” There are some excellent amateur contributions, but on the whole they are (very) rare in modern times, partly because of the time, money and sheer doggedness involved in doing research. If you did a head count, I’m certain you’d find the number of contributions from amateurs are hugely outnumbered by those from “professional” scientists. (I’m not against the amateurs, good on them, but against overplaying the hand as it were.)
(BTW: While S.B. is no doubt a bright guy, I believe he isn’t a scientist as such. Has he really made any “scientific discoveries”?)
Fred:
“Really a debate for scientists not 4×4 salesmen and property developers.”
Absolutely.
Ian:
“Wouldn’t a balanced skepticism (and skepticism that isn’t balanced doesn’t have a strong claim to being genuine skepticism) give equal time to both sides?”
For fact-based issues: yes and no. Yes, if the “balance” is evidence-based arguments and no if its not.
In presenting an issue based on science, it is the balance of EVIDENCE that matters, not opinions.
If one side has no (substantiated) evidence, then they have little to contribute. (They might contribute a hypothesis, but it’d have to be identified as such and have to be up to scratch, not a loose thought as it were.)
The mainstream media screw this up regularly by “balancing” fact-based issues using opinions, rather than evidence. Its made worse by not illustrating what, if any, remarks have sound evidence behind them. Its one of the reasons the SMC is needed.
July 21, 2008 at 10:24 pm
Thanks everyone for interesting and thoughtful comments.
Greg: my criteria are simple. Does a theory make falsifiable predictions? Do the facts bear these predictions out? And does it have greater explanatory power than other theories? This comes more or less straight from the greatest modern philosopher of science, Karl Popper. I think these criteria are assessable by laypeople.
Falafulu Fisi makes some excellent points. I would add two other problems with complex statistical modelling. First, complex models tend to “overfit”, so a mis-specified model can still explain historical data really well. In layman’s terms – it’s looks right but it’s actually wrong, and you find this out the moment you try to use it to predict.
Second, complex models require a huge number of decisions – about data inclusion, missing values, variable construction, model specification, treatment of the error term, serial correlation, estimation method and so on, as well as assumptions about the variables such as normality and independence. This makes it incredibly hard for the analyst to avoid making choices and corrections to help give the result they expect. That’s just human nature, not fraud. Technically, it’s called confirmation bias, and is a well-established scientific problem.
The answer to both these problems is the same – falsifiable predictions and competing theories. In other words, empirical results are the supreme court of science, and it is only the ‘fittest’ theories that should survive.
My understanding is that Dr Hansen’s predictions of climate change in 1988 were not borne out; the globe did warm, but not by nearly as much as his models predicted. Similarly, predictions of rising temperatures, rising sea-levels, hurricane intensity and the like have not been borne out over the last five to seven years. There has been a plateau, followed by a reduction, as far as I can tell.
So from the grave, imagine the voice of Karl Popper, asking the AGW proponents – are your theories falsifiable? How do you react when their predictions fail? Is there a competing theory with greater power to explain what we see happening around us?
That is the foundation of science. Don’t let anybody tell you otherwise. The rest is just detail.
July 22, 2008 at 10:21 am
Just a few comments…
One of the reasons the Science Media Centre is needed is that the level of basic scientific literacy in the media at large is pretty piss-poor, and the number of full-time specialist science journalists on staff is very low. Is there even one? This leads to the sorts of issues Heraclides outlines above.
Malcolm, climate models are not “complex statistical models”. They are physical models, in that they contain code that represents the physics of the behaviour of the atmosphere (and ocean, etc). For instance, they include the physics of radiation absorption in the atmosphere, and use pretty much the same code as weather forecasting models to generate “weather” inside the model.
Hansen’s 1988 projections were pretty much bang on the button. Not sure where you get the idea that they were wrong. Five to seven year trends are meaningless in climate terms – you can go back through the last 30 years and find many examples where that sort of length of time shows negative trends. Sea levels are rising. Ice is melting. Hurricanes are a matter of interesting study (and the current situation in the Atlantic is very interesting), but as a general matter, if you put more energy into a system, you might expect its operations to become more energetic. But it’s complicated…
So let’s see if we can answer your Popperian questions…
Are your theories falsifiable?
Of course. But the underpinnings of our understanding of the climate system (atmospheric physics, radiation transfer in gases etc) are so well-established that it would need a complete re-write of everything down to quantum physics for them to be proved wrong. And they seem to work pretty well…
How do you react when their predictions fail? You look very carefully at everything that went into the prediction, and see if you can account for the failure.
Here’s an example. All the model projections failed to account for the rapid decline in Arctic sea ice seen in 2007. Individual model runs do show periods of rapid ice loss, so they are clearly capable of getting things roughly right, but the timing was out by decades. Was this an initial conditions problem? Or a model failure? Probably both. So the ice modellers are working frantically, people are making ever more detailed observations to feed into the models, and we’ll have to wait and see how they get on. Meanwhile, jsut about every scientist working on the Arctic sea ice is busily making testable predictions about this summer’s sea ice minimum (see here). Who will be right…? Interesting point for us both to consider, eh?
Your final question, “Is there a competing theory with greater power to explain what we see happening around us?” is actually one of the main reasons why those who point to perceived failings in our current understanding of climate are so unconvincing. In order to radically change our view of how the climate system responds to a rapid increase in greenhouse gases, you have to propose a competing theory that can both explain why GHG increases are not important, and how some other factor is capable of warming the system to the extent that we observe. No sceptic or group of sceptics has come anywhere near proposing that sort of compelling antithesis – perhaps because to do it you have to re-write basic physics (see earlier).
That’s the basis of the science.
July 22, 2008 at 11:03 am
(I wrote this before Gareth’s post, but I’ll post it more-or-less as it stood for the sake of it.)
Malcolm,
Models are models and theories are theories: they’re (subtly) different things.
Models are a simplified, usually mathematical described, representation of a system. Theories are explanations of how a thing (system) works using underlying principles.
The difference is subtle, but models fail in ways that theories don’t. Inappropriate approximations, for example.
(Reading your post I can’t help wondering if you’re confusing physical law and theory.)
“That is the foundation of science. Don’t let anybody tell you otherwise. The rest is just detail.”—you’re prone to making grand statements, aren’t you?!
The foundations of science precede Popper, by more that a few years
I’m not a philosopher, but I believe Popper was examining existing practice in science and trying to figure out what worked (in the long term) and what didn’t when he came up with the observation. I emphasis “existing” to emphasise that this practice existed before Popper’s time. I wouldn’t want to trivialise his contribution, but if you were to, you could argue that he codified an existing practice, but you write it as if he created it.
July 22, 2008 at 1:45 pm
Regarding theories and models – what Gareth and heraclides are missing is that the theory is based on the models. This is why there is so much scrutiny of the models, because garbage in results in garbage out (or bad theory).
July 22, 2008 at 2:09 pm
“the theory is based on the models.”
Absolutely and utterly wrong, the theory is based in radiation physics.
July 22, 2008 at 2:17 pm
Heraclides said…
Models are a simplified, usually mathematical described, representation of a system. Theories are explanations of how a thing (system) works using underlying principles.
Now, we’re getting into the philosophical debate here.
FACT : There can only be one physical reality.
====
What are our current Theories say?
Here is the current scenarios, in the field of Quantum Mechanics.
There are a number of competing theories that have been proposed over the years (& decades) that actually give the same predictions. I’ll just mention some of them as the followings:
1) Copenhagen Interpretation
This is the original, where weird ideas such as point entity particles can be at 2 places (traversing thru 2 paths) at once. One can observe this in the lab via the double-slit experiment. This is indirectly inferred , since the theory says that. The other weird phenomena is the instantaneous communication between 2 correlated particles in different points in space with no time delay (it means that such event is non-causal) , even if the 2 particles are separated by vast distances as say in 2 different Galaxies. It hasn’t been tested in a lab of the length of the Galaxies by it has been tested by Prof. Anton Zellinger and his team from Innsbruk University in the late 1990s using laser in a fibre optic cable of a few kilometers. That is if it is instantaneous in a few kilometers, then it must be instantaneous in distances between galaxies.
Copenhagen poses philosophical problems about reality, but hey, it works in practice. Copenhagen is non-local, ie, causes and effects are instantaneous even in vast non-local distances as faraway galaxies.
2) Many World Interpretation
This theory is known by other names as parallel universe / multiple universe, and it was formulated in order to give causal explanation to the problems posed by the Copenhagen version. For the double slit experiment I mentioned, the multi-verse theory says, that a single particle doesn’t go thru the 2 holes (say, hole A and hole B) of the slit at once, but it only goes in one of the hole (say hole A).
An identical particle from another universe just pops into existence into our universe and goes thru the other hole B. This occurs only at the instant when the particle from our universe (ie, one fired by the laser in the lab) is going thru in one of the holes (ie, hole A), so the identical particle (from somewhere) materializes and goes thru the other hole (hole B) and together the 2 particles travel emerges from the slits and travel towards the detector (screen or counter) behind the slit, where they then interfere, ie , is they form interference pattern.
Now, the Multi-verse theory restores causality back, but it poses another philosophical problem of infinite universes. Multiverse says that when a conscious observer decides to observe a quantum event, the universe splits at that instant to form 2 identical universes where they forever cut off from each other ie, physical communications. But everyday, everywhere in every second, someone is making a quantum observation, so it means the Universe is splitting continuously into billions more universes. This is absurd.
Here is the question. These 2 theories with different mathematical formulations that lead to the same predictions.
Which one is correct and which one is incorrect? Or perhaps both are incorrect that there is a more generalizable theory that has to be discovered?
My main point that I want to highlight is, Can we trust the mathematical derivations of the 2 theories, since they’re pretty damn good in predicting physical characteristics of our world?
If we trust the mathematics, then which of the 2 theories that one can rely on which perhaps represents the true physical world, even they’re both weird? If we don’t trust their mathematics, then is it possible to say, that perhaps there is a more fundamental theory to be discovered that it is still beyond our capability in today’s knowledge & technology?
The fundamental question to ask about those 2 competing theories is, if there is some cause-effect phenomena that we don’t know, but the mathematics just reveal something like a data fitting problem. As I have stated clearly in my first few posts on this thread that one can fit the data (black-box type modeling) into 2 or more structural modeling equations but one cannot guarantee which structure represents the true underlying physics. This means that one can pick any of the fitted structural models as his preferred model.
Note, if one has different structural models , it means that they have different cause-effect relationships. The main point here is that you could have models with different structures but they lead to the same predictions. My structural modeling example is not exactly the same as the comparison between the Copenhagen and Multi-world Interpretations, but it is a good analogy, ie, 2 different formulations that lead to the same predictions. The fact is, there must be only one truth, so it is one or the other or dismissed them both and search for a new one that has a wider generalization?
How about our climate system? The main debate about climate is if humans is responsible (cause) for the warming? See, it is possible to have different models that describe the same observations and I find it odd that climate scientists have declared that the case is closed, no debate.
The debate between Copenhagen and Multi-world will live on, since we’re long gone and this is where climate debate should be like.
July 22, 2008 at 2:19 pm
WWHS: You have that, as an American might say, “ass backwards”.
There is no “theory” based on model outputs. The models are tools to understand how the climate system, in all its wondrous complexity, works. They are therefore themselves complex, and far from perfect. But as someone once said, “all models are wrong, but some are useful”. Climate models are useful.
I suppose you probably mean that the models produce projections for future climate states that you don’t believe. That’s OK, because I don’t believe them either. But I do think they provide useful information about how sensitive the planet is to the amount of greenhouse gases in its atmosphere. They certainly suggest that we need to do something.
If you’d like my (marginally) informed opinion, I think the model projections are currently all wrong, because they fail to capture the changes taking place in the Arctic. Further reductions in Arctic sea ice will bring rapid climate change around the Arctic, with the potential for change throughout the northern hemisphere. That’s not good news.
July 22, 2008 at 2:46 pm
Since comments appear to be closed on the post about the ‘Great Global Warming Swindle’, I’ll post the comment I was going to add there here. Apologies for the threadjack, and if you want to move it back to the correct thread Poneke, feel free…
—-
The British broadcasting regulator, Ofcom, yesterday published its ruling that Channel 4 – the television channel that commissioned and broadcast the ‘Great Global Warming Swindle’ in the UK – was in breach of the broadcasting code.
You can read the summary judgement or the full judgement [pdf].
There is also a longer article about Channel 4 and its programmes on environmental matters in the Guardian.
July 22, 2008 at 2:50 pm
Gareth said…
Malcolm, climate models are not “complex statistical models”
Says who? You’re telling me that the stochastic models used in climate simulation is not complex statistics? Perhaps you have started with a wrong initial condition here Gareth (your sniping at me in one of the thread at David Farrar)? You should try to learn about what different types of mathematical techniques adopted in climate modeling before you jump in here with an uninformed comment like that.
Gareth said…
they contain code that represents the physics of the behaviour of the atmosphere (and ocean, etc).
Yes, and that is why stochastic modeling is involved since these physical processes are not deterministic or otherwise the models would have produced a definite outcome (ie, predictions that are right on the mark) if the models of the physical processes do not behave as stochastic dynamics.
Gareth said…
For instance, they include the physics of radiation absorption in the atmosphere, and use pretty much the same code as weather forecasting models to generate “weather” inside the model.
It is not about rewriting of the Laws of Physics, jesus, where did you get that idea from? The issues is whether the models have accounted for all the physical processes that drive the climate or perhaps there is some sub-processes that scientists are not aware of, or perhaps not yet discovered. Those unknown processes do obey the laws of Physics and it is absurd that you think of that way.
Gareth said…
Hansen’s 1988 projections were pretty much bang on the button.
Are you sure that there is no other structural model that could possibly give the same or even better prediction than Hansen? If it is possible, then the answer is, different cause-effect relationship that lead to the same predictions.
The other issue, what do you mean by bang on the button? Do you mean that projections has a very low error rate? Or you mean zero error rate? If it is just low, then there is a possibility that some other structural models could replicate the same result as Hansen.
Last , are you talking about Hansen’s paper on climate feedback?
July 22, 2008 at 4:49 pm
Malcolm, a few questions for you of a less theoretical nature than your own:
Have you read the IPCC Fourth Assessment report?
Are you familiar with the World Glacier Monitoring Service database? (happy to provide you with the link).
Did you get to Dr Martin Manning’s public lecture in Wellington a few weeks ago?
Have you seen the lake at the end of the Tasman Glacier recently, and do you remember what the glacier was like in the 1980s? (I have, and I do).
Cheers; I appreciate your good humour.
July 22, 2008 at 5:16 pm
The problem I have with the Science Centre is the potential that it could become the clearing house of ‘official’ opinion, a sort of science Pravda, and does not itself demonstrate that science can be contentious on a range of issues, which could be a disservice to our understanding of science. It will be a difficult job.
I hope they have built in safeguards to make sure they are not pushing only certain officially acceptable lines.
Not questioning the intentions of those involved, just worried about unintentioned behaviour. After all, most of us are just human.
July 22, 2008 at 6:57 pm
“my criteria are simple. Does a theory make falsifiable predictions? Do the facts bear these predictions out? And does it have greater explanatory power than other theories? … I think these criteria are assessable by laypeople.”
Malcolm do you really think that laypeople have enough time and/or skill to read hundreds of scientific papers, and download and graph all their own datasets?
I don’t. That is why I think a transparent review process which summarises the individual scientific papers is so important. I think the IPCC review process is extremely thorough – and I find it telling that even the big oil/coal companies who were invited to hire expert reviewers haven’t lodged formal complaints, nor have they pooled their resources to organise a separate review. I am confident that the reports represent an accurate summary of published scientific literature.
I suggest that if anyone has some radical new climate theories they should publish them a peer reviewed science journal and put them up for scientific scrutiny. Note that even qualified contra-AGWers have published very little in recent years. If they have something to say they should explain it in detail to the scientific community rather than aiming at the mass-media.
If anyone has problems with the review process of the IPCC they should publish their views on what type of alternate process should be used to summarise the available scientific research – and explain why countries and companies which stand to lose billions – haven’t organised a separate transparent review process.
I’m sick of all of this lone hero attitude: “I alone with my intellect can take on an entire scientific discipline without ever even publishing a single scientific paper”.
Let’s just make sure that all scientists pro and contra-AGW are contributing to the process, and that the process is robust.
July 22, 2008 at 7:13 pm
insider,
I imagine scientists will point out any serious goofing of the facts. The question there is, of course, is they have the time and inclination (neither of which is political, note).
July 22, 2008 at 7:36 pm
FF, if you want to debate details of modelling, go do it with a climate modeller. I was just pointing out an error, at a level all of us can understand. You didn’t get much joy out of Gavin at RealClimate, if I recall correctly…
July 22, 2008 at 7:59 pm
Greg,
The “lone hero” thing, like the “gifted amateur” one, is oversold. While it does happen, its rare. All but a handful of individuals at the very least put their arguments to a few trusted colleagues before tossing them out for general inspection. And if someone doesn’t publish, or publish and argument with supporting literature and/or experiment, they very rarely get anyway. (And rightfully!)
July 22, 2008 at 10:04 pm
Falafulu,
I’ve got a question about climate models.
All of the currently developed climate models cannot reproduce observed warming (and other parameters) without including a forcing from increased GHG’s.
Some of these models are open source and can be run on a desktop computer, and provide similar but less detailed results to the more complicated models which run on more powerful computers.
Why have no contra-AGWers managed to take one of these open-source models and modify it using an alternate hypothesis such as solar warming, and have the model results match the observations?
You see the contra-AGWers continue to claim that the models can easily be tweaked to match anything, yet nobody seems to be able to tweak them to match any other hypothesis than AGW. Why is that?
July 22, 2008 at 11:13 pm
Carol said “Have you seen the lake at the end of the Tasman Glacier recently, and do you remember what the glacier was like in the 1980s?”
Ditto for the West Coast glaciers, but with an increase in size. They have been growing quickly for years and have recovered much of the mass lost up to the 1970’s.
According to Salinger, overall there has been little change in glacier total size since 1977.
July 23, 2008 at 9:15 am
I hesitate to sully this discussion with facts, but the volume of ice in the South Island cryosphere has reduced 11% over the last 30 years, and 25% over the last 50. The Tasman Glacier is now doomed to retreat at least as far as the Ball Hut, leaving behind a large, deep lake.
The West Coast glaciers are “fast response” glaciers, responding in 5 – 8 years to changes in snow accumulation in the nevées under Mt Cook. Snowfall is projected to increase up there, at least until the balance between rain and snow shifts later in the century…
[Poneke pleads: None of this has anything to do with the original post, why not take it to your blog which is devoted to this kind of thing? Thank you.]
July 30, 2008 at 4:28 pm
The explanation that made sense to me said that water vapour made up the overwhelming bulk of greenhouse gas, so the obsession with CO2 was a little irrelevant.
My sister, who is a sheep farmer, is about to be taxed for the emissions made by her vile animals, as they graze open pastureland. Makes me wish all those herds of roaming dinosaurs, or the massive congregations of pre-industrial American bison, could have been taxed too. Just imagine what they were belching out.
July 30, 2008 at 9:35 pm
Kathy, accepting things as the truth because ‘they make sense to you’ is the same logic that led our ancestors to believe that the sun went round the earth and that the earth was flat.
Science can be counterintuitive.
July 30, 2008 at 9:37 pm
Rice agriculture is possibly the biggest source of anthropogenic methane. Termites put out a lot of methane also. What are the arrangements for taxing the countries that produce rice, and the Aussies for their termites?
July 31, 2008 at 12:44 am
“Rice agriculture is possibly the biggest source of anthropogenic methane.”
Well fancy that! It comes as somewhat of a surprise that Condoleeza, the very talented academic and US Secretary of State has now ventured into the agricultural business and ironically now thought by the eco-doomsters – green plants good, man bad – to be responsible for one of the biggest environmental misdemeanors.
Those fast learning idiosyncratic doomsters must now agree with the recent study lead by Dr Frank Keppler that the mundane activities of living green plants, including trees, may be contributing as much as one third of the methane in the earth’s atmosphere – and methane is second only to carbon dioxide in the rogues’ gallery of greenhouse gases said to be responsible for global warming.
If Condolezza also has interests in forestry then the obligation of deforestation is the only solution.
August 10, 2008 at 12:50 am
I can’t think of anything better )
August 10, 2008 at 9:11 am
“Those fast learning idiosyncratic doomsters must now agree with the recent study lead by Dr Frank Keppler that the mundane activities of living green plants, including trees, may be contributing as much as one third of the methane in the earth’s atmosphere – and methane is second only to carbon dioxide in the rogues’ gallery of greenhouse gases said to be responsible for global warming.”
Indeed as the natural CH4 Emissions and variations from plants and trees,and the marine photosynthetic synthesizers,exceed the anthropogenic component by a significant factor ,and in turn is a biological response to solar variation,what purpose do emission restraints,or cap and trade mitigation serve?